Curse

Xenomortis · Jun 08, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

This is a close one.

Nightfall is horrible. I hate it. The areas are all just variations of a desert theme ranging from "nice" to "absoluteley bloody awful" (the desolation). Playing through the NF campaign feels like a long, drawn out chore that I hate. The desolation is also unforgivable and I blame the Junundu wurms for lots of it.
NF also requires me to bring certain heroes for certain missions. Mostly it's Koss or Dunkoro. I never want those two heroes on my team when I'm trying for a HM mission. I rarely want Zhed or Margrid either (but I can usually make them work better).
The powercreep and PvE skills NF brought along were horrible to.

NF also in my view, started to introduce the more absurd enemies. The tormented creatures are a bloody nightmare (and the desolation undead mobs are stupid at times too). Prophecies did have the Mursaat, but that was fitting with the storyline and you were provided with a means of protection before you were required to actually fight them. NF gave you the Lightbringer title - bloody grind that you'll do after the campaign.

EotN however, did some of the above but worse.
There was no excuse for the PvE skills. None.
Title grinds linked to the power of these skills? That's even worse. Especially since you'll probably only have Rank 5 in one title (after handing a book in) after completing the NM campaign.
The mobs are also absurd and after reading through some of the posts in this thread, I think Carinae summed it up best:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

EotN is by far the worst campaign, particularly in Hard Mode. By far. It simply isn't FUN. You can beat it, get your titles, etc, but at the end of the day it felt like work. In fact, it often feels like you can hear the developer snickering about how they screwed you over. NOT a good design strategy.

Obnoxious damage, obnoxious defense, double movement speed, snare spam, blind spam, KD spam, obnoxious and ubiquitous monster skills, and on and on....

Is it beatable? OF COURSE! Is it fun? Nope.

It invites poor play/players by encouraging gimmicky builds, dependency on Consumables and dependency on PvE skills. It's basically the OPPOSITE of what Guild Wars was at it's inception and a dreadful failure, IMO.

I will forgive EotN on several fronts however.
It has far superior locales. The explorable areas are much nicer to walk around in.
It doesn't require me to bring certain heroes for certain missions. That, is absolutely wonderful.
And at least parts of it are fun. With a strong human team.

Azadaleou · Jun 08, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Nightfall- It turned GW into a single player game with heroes. Terrible imo. Not to mention you are required to have a hero in party for missions. That should of been removed via updated.

vamp08 · Jun 08, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Factions beginning mainland hands-down for me. The design of all the paths of the same color of all the stupid buildings is one of the most flawed pieces of map I have ever encountered in an MMO,ORPG,ARPG,etc. I'll finally get to my quest location....only to find that the actual portal/NPC is ABOVE or BELOW me.

Longasc · Jun 08, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

EotN is by far the worst campaign, particularly in Hard Mode. By far. It simply isn't FUN. You can beat it, get your titles, etc, but at the end of the day it felt like work. In fact, it often feels like you can hear the developer snickering about how they screwed you over. NOT a good design strategy.

Obnoxious damage, obnoxious defense, double movement speed, snare spam, blind spam, KD spam, obnoxious and ubiquitous monster skills, and on and on....

Is it beatable? OF COURSE! Is it fun? Nope.

It invites poor play/players by encouraging gimmicky builds, dependency on Consumables and dependency on PvE skills. It's basically the OPPOSITE of what Guild Wars was at it's inception and a dreadful failure, IMO.

Indeed... environment effects like the frozen lake Drakkar and the blind spam in Orr are annoying. I still think they are innovative and fun at the same time. There needs to be some incentive to adapt, think and improve your build.

Yet you are right that these areas were designed with PvE skills and consumables in mind, to be somewhat challenging to fully developed chars. These areas were designed for veterans like you are one. Have you become lazy over the years, taking easy victory for granted?

I totally support the notion that consumables AND just too good PvE skills should never have happened. PvE skills are okay in the observation that PvE and PvP gameplay are vastly different, but the implementation is not. It started out nicely with a few (some of them just too good already at that time), but then it got totally out of hand in EOTN.

It is hard to separate the bad parts of an expansion from the good ones, in some regards EOTN was a failure, in other parts it was awesome and really made me sad that this was it, no more Utopia campaign to come and so on.

Banane-O-Man · Jun 08, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azadaleou

Nightfall- It turned GW into a single player game with heroes. Terrible imo. Not to mention you are required to have a hero in party for missions. That should of been removed via updated.

I agree, they should make it like factions where togo and mhenlo are already in your party window following you around. AND THAT THEY REVIVE IF THEY DIE, yes they can be morons!

Xenomortis · Jun 08, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

I totally support the notion that consumables AND just too good PvE skills should never have happened. PvE skills are okay in the observation that PvE and PvP gameplay are vastly different, but the implementation is not. It started out nicely with a few (some of them just too good already at that time), but then it got totally out of hand in EOTN.

I would argue that the PvE skills should never have been introduced. Particularly with their power level. There are several that totally displace profession specific elites.

Having the same skill sets as you have in PvE in PvP is I think, an important aspect of GW. The PvE/PvP split should have allowed that much more reasonably (with PvP versions being toned down, but with very similar functionalities).
Obviously A-Net didn't like this idea at all.
But here is not the place to go into that.

Carinae · Jun 08, 2009, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

These areas were designed for veterans like you are one. Have you become lazy over the years, taking easy victory for granted?

Heh, well I am lazy, but I don't think that's why I hate EotN and some HM design decisions.

I hate things I cannot counter (weather at all, or for all intents and purposes)...

Trample chains (KD Lock is fun?)
Jotun Stomp chains (KD Lock is fun?)
Drakkar Lake freeze (Perma snare is fun?)
Cathedral Collapse
Twisting Jaws
and on and on.....

I did Arborstone HM yesterday and wanted to go on a shooting rampage after my 4th failure in a row. The monsters aren't hard. The stupid Cathedral Collapse effect is awful, especially when they lay into you with a good sized mob.

Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse

Awww, you died, too bad.

Then on the 5th try, after succeeding through the mission.... Danika decides to WALK all the way back to where the Urn is stored EVEN THOUGH I'M HOLDING THE URN. Mission Time: 30:10

6th try
Mission Time: 21:18

Fix bugs. STOP trying to piss me off. Challenge =/= Asshat design. If they are going to do that, they might as well get it over with and auto-kill your party as soon as you enter a zone.

Dear player: We hate you. DIE! Love Anet.
Return to Outpost.

Joe Hostile · Jun 08, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Nightfall.

The Heroes were a great addition, but beyond that the lands are so desolate and boring, IMHO. I also don't particularly like having to be swallowed by giant worms, heh.

Longasc · Jun 08, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Heh, well I am lazy, but I don't think that's why I hate EotN and some HM design decisions.

I hate things I cannot counter (weather at all, or for all intents and purposes)...

Trample chains (KD Lock is fun?)
Jotun Stomp chains (KD Lock is fun?)
Drakkar Lake freeze (Perma snare is fun?)
Cathedral Collapse
Twisting Jaws
and on and on.....

Indeed the Centaur KDs are just annoying.

As usual in GW, good idea in general, bad implementation. I wonder if they manage to create meaningful environment effects for GW2 that have certain implications without being too annoying. Or monster skills that are a bit more creative than a super bite or KD spam.

glacialphoenix · Jun 08, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Then on the 5th try, after succeeding through the mission.... Danika decides to WALK all the way back to where the Urn is stored EVEN THOUGH I'M HOLDING THE URN. Mission Time: 30:10

I hate that. The other one is when she's supposed to use Blood of Zu Heltzer to open the doors, but is hanging back because she's trying to heal you or your minions.

The Drakkar Lake environment effects can be negotiated through - I mean, you have to watch your positioning, that's it - but heaven forfend you try that with a PUG, as I found out during the Myish bounty. Groups perpetually wander smack into the middle of the ice, then wonder why they can't run away when a horde of wisps starts chasing them. ARGH.

I do like the way GWEN managed to implement heroes in the storyline without making you bring them along. The Wintersday quest where you make a present for Gwen actually required you to not bring her along, which is quite a change from the "Dunkoro must be in your party". I mean, Dunkoro isn't so bad for me, but when it comes to heroes I almost never touch, like Margrid...

Mad Lord of Milk · Jul 04, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Nightfall gets to dark, dreary, depressing, and repetitive once you hit Undead-Land.

Neo Nugget · Jul 04, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Nightfall, not a big fan of being in dry, sandy deserts for most of the game. Realm of torment is a very cool place, but you only arrive there when your a few hours from beating the game.

Longasc · Jul 04, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Just an observation:

Post-Searing Ascalon
Desolation
Kaineng City areas

brownish, desolate areas. The brownish-yellowish theme is especially true for the Desolation and the mobs, even the mobs there are brownish.

Maybe the artists are just too good at their job - the Desolation is so depressing that I tried to leave it behind me asap. But the dark "Torment" theme was not so much better. On the other hand I wonder why brownish area textures are so ever popular in video games.

This reminds me why I love Far Cry, Crysis and Unreal Tournament so much more than the Quake games, "brownish area design" is a major turnoff to me.

dunky_g · Jul 04, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azadaleou

Nightfall- It turned GW into a single player game with heroes. Terrible imo. Not to mention you are required to have a hero in party for missions. That should of been removed via updated.

This.

basically heros and inscriptions made the game a joke.

Tyla · Jul 04, 2009, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse Cathedral Collapse

I can sympathise. I got through it first time in HM on my Ranger (when I wasn't using any of these hyper-powerful builds but a homebrew uneducated shitty one), but the amount of times "Cathedral Collapse" happens, I lost a survivor I was doing it in Normal Mode, and it took me several times to complete... in Normal Mode, all kitted out and with the builds that have some offensive and defensive substance to them. Hey look, I can't even get a 1/4 skill off!

KoKoS · Jul 04, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

factions..

i dunno why?
maybe coz i love proph and like nf ;P

also factions made ppl that never knew each other start fights and call each other names just becoz the one is luxon and the other one is kurzick..
and h8ing someone for his gw alliance is simply stupid and it indicates how obsessed u are with the game xP

Pleikki · Jul 04, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunky_g

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azadaleou View Post
Nightfall- It turned GW into a single player game with heroes. Terrible imo. Not to mention you are required to have a hero in party for missions. That should of been removed via updated.

This.

basically heros and inscriptions made the game a joke.

These both things. inscription + heros. eww.

-Sonata- · Jul 04, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Factions.

Hate time limits for the bonus portions on missions. Did not like the locked gates. The voice over acting for the cut scenes was just awful (Elder Rhea, Shiro, Danika, pretty much everyone...), I found the story to be cliche and predictable, and aside from the Jade sea area's, the chapter is not nearly as pretty as the others.

Megas XLR · Jul 04, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I like Prophecies the most, but I'll never start a character there again.

And I least like Factions because the areas are so annoying to navigate through.

Voodoo Rage · Jul 04, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

All of the campaigns have issues that I don't really enjoy.

Prophecies: Some very poorly designed missions. That mission where Rurik gets himself killed in the end is absolutely unforgivable for a supposedly "beginner" mission. I very nearly gave up on Guild Wars entirely because of that mission. Aurora Glade is also badly designed. If you didn't have wiki to guide you through it, you would have no clue what to do in the end. Also the random boss spawns make elite captures a total grind. Otherwise I think the gradually increase in difficulty for the missions is very well done. For a new player, the Ring of Fire missions were HARD (great!).

Factions: I actually like Factions. Very beautiful artwork. But the map designs are an absolute maze. Also requiring 100k faction just to get a LEVEL ONE PvE skill is lame. Arborstone is a badly designed mission. Vizunah Square annoys me because you never know who is going to be paired with you on the other side. Otherwise I would consider this a fairly easy campaign overall. It is also very short for a stand alone campaign.

Nightfall: The desert theme gets a little old. I'm totally anti-social, so I LOVE heroes. The worm missions are terrible. I also hate that I am required to take particular heroes for particular missions. Otherwise I think the mission design is actually pretty good. Probably the hardest missions for me to figure out was the Grand Court of Seb. mission (the one with the Blasphemy) and the next to the end mission where you go through hell only to have Shiro wipe your party (that's terrible design).

EoTN - I LOVE this expansion. The art is stunning. Lots of different types of foes. Great dungeons. Unique skills. Yeah, some of the monster skills are pretty annoying and title grinding used to be a pain (glad they fixed it so you really don't have to stress getting much past level 6-7 or so).